The Zombie Hunters Forum: WE GO THERE.

General Discussion => Zombie Stuff => Topic started by: DubstepDisciple on June 18, 2011, 10:53:54 pm



Title: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: DubstepDisciple on June 18, 2011, 10:53:54 pm
Now I heard about this idea awhile back and I am not sure if I used the right terminology for it but many different sources say that modern weapons lack the accuracy of semi-automatic weaponry. The Scythe Principle essentially is mounting a machine gun or automatic weapon at a level that is at about neck level for zeds. From there you just have to pivot horizontally and you essentially "cut" off the heads of approaching zeds in large horizontal swathes. Now I am not saying this is a fullproof tactic but I could see somebody sitting in the cab of a truck with the door up and the barrel of a machine gun braced against it (perhaps a bipod would be attached on the bottom and you can then brace it against the front of the door while pulling back against the weapon for increased accuracy) unloading and doing quite a bit of damage.

Even if the zeds don't die outright I think its a more efficient use of automatics in a zombie scenario. Again assuming you somehow have access to this kind of hardware.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: anyman82 on June 19, 2011, 12:21:04 am
Nah, it's pretty much a pointless waste of ammunition for several reasons:

1. Bullets aren't very good at decapitating.
2. People, and therefore zeds, are many different sizes. There is no definite "neck-level".
3. Unless you hit a zed clear in the center of mass, which would be lower than neck-level anyhow, you won't do much to stop them. The bullets would just go through.
4. You'd run out of bullets extremely fast. Within 15-30 seconds even with the most high-capacity guns.
5. You'll wear out your barrel.
and 6. Anything short of a direct mount to either a vehicle or the ground and that thing is gonna buck like a mule.

So yeah, if you're close enough to do that, you'd be better off just switching your gun to semi-auto and choosing your shots.

On the other hand, if it's rage zombies, like in 28 Days Later, this might work just because they can be killed by non-headshots.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Gromitooth on June 19, 2011, 03:44:52 am
Like Any said, I would only do that in a situation like L4D or 28 days later, because they don't have to take a bullet to the brain to die.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sok on June 19, 2011, 05:04:59 am
i think that in the case of zombie apocalypse geneva convention would be suspended. And using dum dum bullets could be more effective than standard ones. even if they dont decapitate them, ripping large holes in them is going to decrease the zombies uhh fighting ability.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Dodom on June 19, 2011, 05:43:54 am
i think that in the case of zombie apocalypse geneva convention would be suspended. And using dum dum bullets could be more effective than standard ones. even if they dont decapitate them, ripping large holes in them is going to decrease the zombies uhh fighting ability.

Standard army ammunition isn't only intended to injure more than kill for humanitarian reasons, but mostly for efficiency. The wounded cost more than the dead. Kill a soldier, you take out one. Wound a soldier, you take out three. (This is the approximate proportion of manpower you take away from combat to run nurseries and evacuate the wounded.) After all normal wars don't go on until one side is exterminated, but until it had enough and surrenders, so to the other side "dead" bring no advantage that "out of combat" doesn't already have.
Now when the objective is killing, the army certainly does have the proper ammunition, however I don't know in what amounts, given that it's not what is primarily used in combat. They may have to use them sparingly, either to defend sensitive positions, or by giving them to good shoots who will use them to their best.


As to automatic weapons... remember that bullets are not a continuous stream. When you spray around, you get many scattered hits (and even more misses), not a solid line of death. If a zombie is running straight at and you have a split second to react, shooting in full auto mode is as good as any reaction, but given a choice, aiming is a much better idea.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Ricky S on June 19, 2011, 05:51:08 am
I dunno about Dodom. Have you seen how effective miniguns are. That is literally a line of bullets. Granted it does use a ridiculous amount of ammunition but if you had a minigun at a gate and a buttload of ammo you would be able to scythe through them with no problem.

Realistically the only reason why I wouldn't take a machine gun in the field is the weight and the sound. If you have ever been near one firing it is bloody loud.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sok on June 19, 2011, 06:21:45 am
@Dodom- i agree with you, but i dont really see the point in your post:P
Army uses standard rounds because
a) they are cheap
b) geneva and other conventions dont forbid them.
aaaand... army has stocks of illegal to use ammo, is that what you are saying?

and on  a side note- dum dum rounds can be made fairly easy by anyone who has standard fmj rounds, just make two criscrossing cuts on the tip of the bullet, at least thats how they did it in ww1.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Dodom on June 19, 2011, 06:54:42 am
I don't claim any expertise on weaponry, but the ammunition thing came from an article I've read in a hunting magasine explaining what made a hunting rifle a hunting rifle. Essentially, it's made to kill; the projectile must lose most or all its velocity within its target so the energy is all converted into damage and the target dies as quickly as possible. You wouldn't want to shoot a moose with a single shot from an army M-16 - the moose would kill you.
So I wasn't even thinking about illegal stuff there. I don't actually know whether any standard hunting ammunition would be useable in any standard military guns, but if it does, then I'd bet the army does have some.

(And I'm certain that every army has a few illegal tricks up their sleeves, just in case.)


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Fiveofclubs on June 19, 2011, 12:20:37 pm
Pictured here are .30 claiber bullets, not the .223 that you'd find in an M-16, but it is a standard military caliber and everything is essentially the same.   The first one pictured is a standard military 145 grain (weight) Full metal jacketed bullet.  The second is a 168 grain SST bullet (nylon tipped and made for hunting) and the last is a 168 grain hollow tipped match bullet (made for target shooting).   The military one is a little lighter and by far the cheapest to produce.   The reason it is lighter is because it doesn't have the added "Boat Tail" at the bottom.  The tapered bottom makes it more accurate at longer ranges.   The hunting one has that tip to help the bullet expand when it hits something, it delivers almost all of it's energy to the target where the military one is made to penetrate light materials like wood, dirt, and even cider blocks.  The target one has a holllow tip not for expansion, but because it creates a pocket of air in the front that ballistically is better than a tip.  To my knowledge they don't make "dum-dum" or hollow point bullets for rifles much, it's mostly for defensive pistol bullets.  The ballistics of larger hollow tips is bad and military rifles are meant to be shot out to 100's of yards at least.  As for being able to use different types of bullets rifles are much less finicky about bullet shape than pistols.  Many pistols will only take certain shaped bullets and jam when using other shapes.

(http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae204/fiveofclubs/Shoots/2011-06-19_13-49-08_242.jpg)

Machine guns are good at what they were designed for, firing a lot of bullets into a large area.  Not good for head shots, but blowing off limbs and snapping spines will slow down a zombie horde.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sok on June 19, 2011, 03:16:02 pm
Machine guns are good at what they were designed for, firing a lot of bullets into a large area.  Not good for head shots, but blowing off limbs and snapping spines will slow down a zombie horde.
and they would be even better at that using dum dum bullets, right?


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Jetraymongoose on June 19, 2011, 03:25:42 pm
If you really wanted to get them at neck level, why not set up like, wire to cut their throats? That'd be cool...

Also Sok, what are dum dum bullets? I feel like you're just waiting for somebody to ask that. 


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sok on June 19, 2011, 03:46:56 pm
haha actually no, but i had no idea on how to respond to dodoms post, but ive felt that she responded to mine:D
also- dum dum bullets are basically any kind that rapidly expands after hitting the flesh. they can be standard fmj rounds with cuts on the jacket, can be filled with mercury, be explosive... you get the idea. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet)

also, wikipedia says that its the hague convention that prohibited the use of these bullets, not geneva as i said previously:P


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Ricky S on June 20, 2011, 02:31:45 am
haha actually no, but i had no idea on how to respond to dodoms post, but ive felt that she responded to mine:D
also- dum dum bullets are basically any kind that rapidly expands after hitting the flesh. they can be standard fmj rounds with cuts on the jacket, can be filled with mercury, be explosive... you get the idea. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet)

also, wikipedia says that its the hague convention that prohibited the use of these bullets, not geneva as i said previously:P

Ah the Hague. I have been there.

Well once the dead rise up the international laws and treaties will mean very little.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sok on June 20, 2011, 03:26:37 am
i dont think that these conventions apply to zombies. they only apply to soldiers in the time of war, i think, and you cant declare a war on zombies (in a literal way, not metaphorical:P)


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Cheez on June 20, 2011, 05:03:54 pm
If you really wanted to get them at neck level, why not set up like, wire to cut their throats? That'd be cool...

They'd probably just fall over rather than get decapitated to be honest.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: DubstepDisciple on June 20, 2011, 05:44:25 pm
I was just arguing semantics really. If you came across a machine gun with .50 calibre bullets and had plenty of them then this principle of mounting at a higher height to get a better "chance" of getting a headshot will increase the average amount of bullets that hit the head because you move the bullet to air density up the body. Any kind of LMG puts off rounds that punch through bodies so if fruitful circumstances arise then this could be a better application then simply walking around with it.

Again you could argue the next point that an LMG at leg level, cutting swathes into an approaching horde, while killing next to no zombies does blow their legs apart. Legs blown apart means no walking and I would much rather deal with a horde of crawling zombies then walking/running ones.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Jetraymongoose on June 20, 2011, 08:58:25 pm
They'd probably just fall over rather than get decapitated to be honest.

I know, I was just being silly.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Outlander on June 22, 2011, 09:30:01 pm
Again you could argue the next point that an LMG at leg level, cutting swathes into an approaching horde, while killing next to no zombies does blow their legs apart. Legs blown apart means no walking and I would much rather deal with a horde of crawling zombies then walking/running ones.

If you had enough rounds you would Chop them down to crawling level and your gun is then set to head or center mass height, HELLO OVERKILL.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sangrebloom on June 22, 2011, 10:00:25 pm
Overkill is what's needed! they didn't get the memo that they were already dead to begin with.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Outlander on June 22, 2011, 10:44:32 pm
thats very true. dead Squared.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sangrebloom on June 22, 2011, 11:21:04 pm
I had been thinking that having a flame thrower would be awesome during such times, but I think the smell would get to me.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Outlander on June 22, 2011, 11:28:55 pm
BBQ is not a bad smell :)

Also if they kept some motor skill after becoming a zed fire would be an issue with walking matchsticks *they are dry and burn hot*


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sangrebloom on June 22, 2011, 11:32:18 pm
I would think dead people smell horrible, were not exactly grain fed beef! (unless your a vegetarian, then your just good eats)   

Maybe it would work better if there was a deep trench just after they get toasted, they fall in and end up the black greasy dust at the bottom of the BBQ.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Outlander on June 22, 2011, 11:34:06 pm
Nope i would want a large pitfall with spikes and at the bottom plastic tarp lining it and a crap tonne of lime on hand to disolve the bodies. HELLO HUMAN BIODIESEL


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sangrebloom on June 22, 2011, 11:43:05 pm
Well might as well be used for something! at least it's not soylent green!


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Outlander on June 22, 2011, 11:52:51 pm
Very true also when refined hello superb sauce of fuel and also flamethrower ammo


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sangrebloom on June 23, 2011, 12:29:10 am
awesome! so the flamethrower can be fed! that makes it a more viable option to me than a gun.  Once the bullets run out, your only left with a pistol whipping option...which is closer than I want to be to a zombie!


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Outlander on June 23, 2011, 12:30:39 am
unless its a cute zombie *oh your a cute zombie you can bite me just a little bit*


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sangrebloom on June 23, 2011, 12:33:55 am
LOL I would think being alive trumps being cute! that would leave me to toasted the both of you to continue the battle for the earth...but then I get your badge then.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Ricky S on June 23, 2011, 12:35:28 am
A lot of firefighters cannot eat bacon anymore. The smell of bacon is very similar to the smell of burning flesh.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Outlander on June 23, 2011, 12:35:55 am
you would toast me *stares at with puppy eyes* Toast lil old me?


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sangrebloom on June 23, 2011, 12:37:24 am
ugh, gross... I doesn't help matters when they say that pig flesh and bone is a good analog for human flesh and bone... kicks up the nasty factor


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Outlander on June 23, 2011, 12:39:28 am
pork is tasty :) OM NOM NOM NOM thank the lord im not jewish


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sangrebloom on June 23, 2011, 12:40:52 am
you would toast me *stares at with puppy eyes* Toast lil old me?

Only to get the undead strumpet off of you... then if you were bitten then I'd have to toast you, you understand why right? I'd do it crying if that makes you feel better forum buddy!


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Outlander on June 23, 2011, 12:44:45 am
that there is love and what if it wasnt a strumpet would you still roast em for me sang just cook him on up or is the strumpet a jelousy thing? lol we cant all have the friendship of the red haired sniper


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sangrebloom on June 23, 2011, 12:51:40 am
totally roast them either way! I just didn't think the word 'cute' applied to males!   it's been my experience with women that aim for a "cute" look are usually really bitchy! I'd still roast you if you got infected though...unless we cut off the offending limb right away, I wonder if that would stop the infection though?

I'm not Jewish either, but i've been having ups and downs with meat lately, some days I don't care about the poor little creatures, other days it kind of sickens me to think that amount of meat is wasted because of people either not interested in donating it to people who need it or recycling it to make things like soap and lotion.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Outlander on June 23, 2011, 01:09:01 am
I like meat and i am not wasteful. :) and you so would roast a lady zomb if she was all up on you would waste her


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sangrebloom on June 23, 2011, 01:13:09 am
hey people meat isn't for eating!  we are meant to be wasted! we waste ourselves on other people, projects, jobs and animals all the time! that isn't anything new!

I'd roast any Zomb undead really! I want to live!


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Outlander on June 23, 2011, 01:15:25 am
Sure *winks*  ;)


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: anyman82 on June 23, 2011, 06:20:17 am
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk264/anyman82b/fear2.png)


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Cheez on June 23, 2011, 06:34:06 am
I know, I was just being silly.

Fair enough, on the internet you never can tell if someone's being silly or just stupid.

I was just arguing semantics really. If you came across a machine gun with .50 calibre bullets and had plenty of them then this principle of mounting at a higher height to get a better "chance" of getting a headshot will increase the average amount of bullets that hit the head because you move the bullet to air density up the body. Any kind of LMG puts off rounds that punch through bodies so if fruitful circumstances arise then this could be a better application then simply walking around with it.

I'd probably save it for home defense (And probably use it against human attackers more than zombies)- if I find a machine gun, I'm likely to find several assault rifles and pistols nearby, which would be more useful for zombies.

I would think dead people smell horrible, were not exactly grain fed beef! (unless your a vegetarian, then your just good eats)

Generally zombies don't tend to rot, or if they do it's at a lot slower rate than normal corpses. So at worst you're likely to be burning meat that's only slightly rotten. The difference in smell to fresh meat would be very little, I think. And I know several blacksmiths with first hand experience who tell me human flesh smells like bacon when it cooks.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: sangrebloom on June 23, 2011, 02:16:09 pm
The idea that human smells like pig kinda sucks.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: anyman82 on June 23, 2011, 03:00:41 pm
The idea that human smells like pig kinda sucks.
Smells like pig, tastes like chicken apparently.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Log! on June 23, 2011, 03:46:38 pm
(click to show/hide)

I just got done crying with laughter. I'm still having trouble not dying. You fucking win.

If I've ever given points to anyone else, They are now Anyman's. Give them up, nerds.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Dodom on June 23, 2011, 04:42:58 pm
Generally zombies don't tend to rot, or if they do it's at a lot slower rate than normal corpses. So at worst you're likely to be burning meat that's only slightly rotten. The difference in smell to fresh meat would be very little, I think. And I know several blacksmiths with first hand experience who tell me human flesh smells like bacon when it cooks.

But zombies aren't only meat... they (normally) haven't been gutted, they contain poop and fluids that we prefer to avoid in our BBQs.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: anyman82 on June 23, 2011, 06:13:27 pm
I just got done crying with laughter. I'm still having trouble not dying. You fucking win.

If I've ever given points to anyone else, They are now Anyman's. Give them up, nerds.
PLEASE!

Tell me about those fucking golf shoes! O_______O


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Ricky S on June 23, 2011, 10:25:12 pm
I wouldn't be eating zombie flesh whatsoever. How do you know that it is properly cooked and the virus is killed? Also chances are even slightly rotten meat will make you sick. Also it is cannablism so you have to worry about prions because zombies are essentially humans. That is how mad cow disease came around. They fed cows dead cow in their feed. All in all eating people on a regular basis is a bad idea.


Title: Re: Machine Guns and the Scythe Principle
Post by: Outlander on June 24, 2011, 12:23:29 am
Damning people jerky was sounding good